Posts by jonathan dough

204

Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.

by jonathan dough in

i'll start with john 14:8-10. .

scriptural support for the triune nature of god, and the gradual recognition that jesus christ, the word incarnate (john 1:1), was and is god, can be found throughout the bible.

the evidence is abundant and unfolds like a flower, foreshadowed in the old testament and revealed in the new testament.

jonathan dough

What lie am I beliving and teaching? That the Father is God and Jesus is God's Son? The bible has taught me this fact. What lies do you accuse me of????

It's how you portray Christian beliefs and teachings, and dare I say, the Trinity itself which can't be separated from the discussion. You minimize who teaches that Jesus was, and is, God when in fact it is the VAST majority of Christianity. You portray Christians as believing that they don't beliee that Jesus is the Son of God. Nobody in Christendom that I'm aware of teaches that; that is a JW lie you are fostering. You commit sins of omission. You claim to be non-denominational when you are toeing the JW line word-for-word and propagating their distortions. You should want to analyze what people are trying to explain to you, not just parrot what the Society convinced you to say or what you read in one of their books.

Claiming that you are non-denominational is at best a half-truth because you lifted their bizarre theories out of their literature and and are now passing it off as truth, things like:

"God doesn't have a God he is God. Jesus cannot be God because he has a God, the Father." The Father has no God or creator, He has always been and always will be. God is the only thing in existence that hasn't been created, everything else has an origin at some point in time in the past.

You're entitled to your opinion, noboby has an issue with that. But in your heart and mind you are not non-denominational. The Society has caused a lot of pain, hurt, destroyed lives and families, and despite some good people its actions and theories in many people's opinions are evil. Pure and simple. And what caused so many of these people to get trapped in the first place can be traced right back to non-Christian, heretical distortions that have been calculated to achieve a particular end. The stuff you're shoveling around right now.

The Messiah of the Old Testament stems from eternity - (Micah 5:2; Proverbs 8:22)

Try reading some of the responses on this thread.

204

Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.

by jonathan dough in

i'll start with john 14:8-10. .

scriptural support for the triune nature of god, and the gradual recognition that jesus christ, the word incarnate (john 1:1), was and is god, can be found throughout the bible.

the evidence is abundant and unfolds like a flower, foreshadowed in the old testament and revealed in the new testament.

jonathan dough

Before I go.......has anyone discussed Hebrews chapter 1 yet. These verses clearly so Jesus is NOT an Angel but something much higher than that.

Some have touched on it. It really is powerful stuff. Amazing how the JWs hide their eyes from such things. Here is my take on Chapter 1.

http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-9.html#46

204

Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.

by jonathan dough in

i'll start with john 14:8-10. .

scriptural support for the triune nature of god, and the gradual recognition that jesus christ, the word incarnate (john 1:1), was and is god, can be found throughout the bible.

the evidence is abundant and unfolds like a flower, foreshadowed in the old testament and revealed in the new testament.

jonathan dough

If the son was the Father he would know his own return. Two seperate minds, seperate souls; if this wasn't true Jesus would know the time of his return.

And it's written that God cannot lie Hebrews6:18, God does have limits, He cannot lie and is incapable of evil; God is way to Holy and God is Love and truth. Titus1:2

Hypostatic union; God-man. If you REALLY in your heart care about learning what is the truth you'll do some homework. Follow the link and quit thinking you have all the answers because none of us do.

Jesus’ ignorance of the Last Day - Christ knew the Last Day in His vision knowledge which is inexpressible in human concepts, not His infused knowledge. But did the Holy Spirit know the day and hour of the Last Day?

204

Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.

by jonathan dough in

i'll start with john 14:8-10. .

scriptural support for the triune nature of god, and the gradual recognition that jesus christ, the word incarnate (john 1:1), was and is god, can be found throughout the bible.

the evidence is abundant and unfolds like a flower, foreshadowed in the old testament and revealed in the new testament.

jonathan dough

and the Father is greater than the Son John14:28.

the Jehovah’s Witnesses are unwilling or unable to acknowledge or grasp the concept of the hypostatic union, the union that is the God-man Jesus, who is fully God the Son and fully man, a divine Person who assumed a human nature. Intertwined with this concept is the often ignored principle that the created humanity of Jesus is not God. Accordingly, Jesus, the man in the God-man equation, could pray to His Father and acknowledge His Father’s superiority without committing any doctrinal contradictions. The Jehovah’s Witnesses, on the other hand, teach that the incarnate Jesus was nothing more or less than a man.

Still only the Father knows the day and hour of the Son's returnMat.24:36,

Just follow the link. I'm tired of repeating myself if you aren't going to pay attention.

Jesus’ ignorance of the Last Day - Christ knew the Last Day in His vision knowledge which is inexpressible in human concepts, not His infused knowledge. But did the Holy Spirit know the day and hour of the Last Day?

204

Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.

by jonathan dough in

i'll start with john 14:8-10. .

scriptural support for the triune nature of god, and the gradual recognition that jesus christ, the word incarnate (john 1:1), was and is god, can be found throughout the bible.

the evidence is abundant and unfolds like a flower, foreshadowed in the old testament and revealed in the new testament.

jonathan dough

continued re begotten for Jeremiah

Monogeneses is translated (1) “only” in (1a) Lk 7:12 of the widow of Nain’s son; (1b) Lk 8:42 of Jairus’ daughter; (2) “only-begotten” (2a) of Jesus in Jn 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; 1 Jn 4:9; (2) of Isaac in Heb 11:17; and (3) “only child” in Lk 9:38 of the devil-possessed child.
(4) With reference to Christ, the phrase “the only begotten of (from) the Father,” Jn 1:14, indicates that as the Son of God He was the sole representative of the Being and character of the One who sent Him. (4a) In the original the definite article is omitted both before “only begotten” and before “Father,” and its absence in each case serves to lay stress upon the characteristics referred to in the terms used.
(4b) The apostle’s object is to demonstrate what sort of glory it was that he and his fellow apostles had seen. (4c) That he is not merely making a comparison with earthly relationships is indicated by para, “from.” (4d) The glory was that of a unique relationship and the word “begotten” does not imply a beginning of His Sonship. (4e) It suggests relationship indeed, but must be distinguished from generation as applied to man.
(5) We can only rightly understand the term “the only begotten” when used of the Son, in the sense of un-originated relationship. (5a) The begetting is not an event of time, however remote, but a fact irrespective of time. (5b) The Christ did not become, but necessarily and eternally is the Son. He, a Person, possesses every attribute of pure Godhood. (5c) This necessitates eternity, absolute being; in this respect He is not ‘after’ the Father;
(8) In Jn 3:16 the statement, “God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son” must not be taken to mean that Christ became the only begotten son by incarnation. (8a) The value and greatness of the gift lay in the Sonship of Him who was given. (8b) His Sonship was not the effect of His being given. (Strong and Vine’s, 167)
http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-6.html#27
Hebrews 1:5 also argues against the Jehovah's Witnesses’ “procreation definition” because “begotten” is used with reference to the enthronement of the existing Christ; an Old Testament parallel to Psalm 2:6-8.
Lastly, even an English definition of “beget” as applied to Christ means to bring into a special relationship, and not by procreation.
(10) Beget in English means to bring into a special relationship. The “be” is intensive and “get” means to bring to one’s self. Jesus, as “the only-begotten of the Father” means that even though he had the unique and equal relationship within the Trinity in eternity past, He took upon Himself the likeness of sinful flesh, dwelt among men, was tempted in all ways, yet without sin, submit

204

Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.

by jonathan dough in

i'll start with john 14:8-10. .

scriptural support for the triune nature of god, and the gradual recognition that jesus christ, the word incarnate (john 1:1), was and is god, can be found throughout the bible.

the evidence is abundant and unfolds like a flower, foreshadowed in the old testament and revealed in the new testament.

jonathan dough

Jesus being the only begotten son of God means that Jesus was the first thing God created

JWs also have a false interpretation of 'begotten' and interpret it as procration. That is also false.

In a similar vein, the Jehovah's Witnesses teach that Jesus was “begotten” in the sense that he was created or born, which is not a Christian Trinitarian teaching. The Jehovah's Witnesses write:

Trinitarians claim that in the case of Jesus, “only-begotten” is not the same as the dictionary definition of “begetting,” which is to “procreate as the father.” (Webster’s Ninth Collegiate Dictionary) They say that in Jesus’ case it means “the sense of unoriginated relationship,” a sort of only son relationship without the begetting. (Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words) Does that sound logical to you? Can a man father a son without begetting him?
Furthermore, why does the Bible use the very same Greek word for “only-begotten” (as Vine admits without any explanation) to describe the relationship of Isaac to Abraham? Hebrews 11:17 speaks of Isaac as Abraham’s “only-begotten son.” There can be no question that in Isaac’s case, he was only-begotten in the normal sense, not equal in time or position to his father. (Should You Believe, Chapter 6)

Actually, Strong and Vine’s does in fact explain why the very same Greek word for “only-begotten” (monogeneses) is used to describe the relationship of Isaac to Abraham, and how “only-begotten” is used with respect to Isaac at Hebrews 11:17 as subsequently explained.

One major weakness in the Jehovah's Witnesses’ argument lies in the fact that Isaac was not an only-begotten son in the natural procreative sense since Abraham actually had another son, Ishmael, (and others after Ishmael) who was born before Isaac (Genesis 16:15), so the Jehovah's Witnesses’ reliance on that verse is unfounded. Because Abraham had no less than two sons, “only-begotten” cannot be applied to Isaac as an “only-begotten son,” in the procreative sense because he wasn’t. It applied to him in a religious, legalistic and figurative connotation as he was the only legitimate son; it refers to a non-biological relationship just as Trinitarians teach with respect to the Word.

It’s the same with the preexistent Christ where “only-begotten” lays stress on characteristics of Christ’s relationship. The phrase “the only-begotten of (from) the Father,” (John 1:14) indicates that as the Son of God He was the sole representative of the Being and character of the One who sent Him,” compared to the original traditional rendering where the definite article is omitted (Strong and Vine’s, 67). Strong and Vine’s speaks of a unique relationship and stresses that “begotten” does not imply a beginning of Sonship nor generation as applied to offspring like Isaac, or that Christ became the only begotten son by incarnation.

Monogeneses is translated (1) “only” in (1a) Lk 7:12 of the widow of Nain&am

204

Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.

by jonathan dough in

i'll start with john 14:8-10. .

scriptural support for the triune nature of god, and the gradual recognition that jesus christ, the word incarnate (john 1:1), was and is god, can be found throughout the bible.

the evidence is abundant and unfolds like a flower, foreshadowed in the old testament and revealed in the new testament.

jonathan dough

I ran out of room again. Here is the rest of the post for Jeremiah

At Hebrews 1:3 Christ is said to be “the very imprint of His (God’s) being” (NAB) (“the very stamp of his nature” (RS) (“the express image of His substance” (Strong and Vine’s, 269). The Greek word used here for image, stamp or imprint is charaktar and means an exact copy or representation, and stresses complete, not partial, similarity of essence.

(2) In the NT it is used metaphorically in Heb 1:3, of the Son of God as “the express image of His substance.” The phrase expresses the fact that the Son “is both personally distinct from, and yet literally equal to, Him of whose essence He is the imprint. The Son of God is not merely his “image” (His character), He is the “image” or impress of His substance, or essence. It is the fact of complete similarity which this word stresses. (Strong and Vine’s, 269)

Accordingly, such equality applies to His eternal existence, omnipotence and omniscient nature, as God and the Word are literally equal to each other with respect to their essential being.

http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-6.html#27

204

Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.

by jonathan dough in

i'll start with john 14:8-10. .

scriptural support for the triune nature of god, and the gradual recognition that jesus christ, the word incarnate (john 1:1), was and is god, can be found throughout the bible.

the evidence is abundant and unfolds like a flower, foreshadowed in the old testament and revealed in the new testament.

jonathan dough

Jesus being the only begotten son of God means that Jesus was the first thing God created and all he had to create him out of God himself(no other creation's (parts) to use.

I know you believe this in your heart, but all you did was repeat what they told you to repeat and what you posted earlier as though by mere repetition it would somehow convince us. You haven't put any original thought into it, and never once addressed the issue of the hypostatic union. The Word was not created because He is divine, of the same essence.

Colossians 2:9 is convincing evidence of the divinity of Christ. It states of Christ that “in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily” (Green’s Literal Translation). The Greek word for “Godhead” is theotes and means divinity. It “stresses deity, the state of being God (Strong and Vine’s, 115). It is to be distinguished from theiotes which refers to the attributes of God, his divine nature and properties and it is this definition which the Jehovah's Witnesses incorrectly attach to Col 2:9 when they claim that the Godhead there merely refers to His “divine qualities” (Reasoning, 420). This is manifestly incorrect according to Strong and Vine’s, and what the Jehovah's Witnesses are actually doing is swapping theiotes for theotes. Regarding the Godhead (theotes) at Colossians 2:9:

In Col 2:9, Paul is declaring that in the Son there dwells all the fullness of absolute Godhead; they were no mere rays of divine glory which gilded him, lighting up His Person for a season and with a splendor not His own; but He was, and is, absolute and perfect God; and the apostle uses theotes to express this essential and personal Godhead of the Son. Theotes indicates the divine essence of Godhood, the personality of God; (Strong and Vines, 114). [Theotes] stresses deity, the state of being God. (ibid, 115).
(Theiotes, on the other hand), … refers to the attributes of God, His divine nature and properties. (Strong and Vine’s, 114)

The Jehovah's Witnesses argue that “[b]eing truly “divinity,” or of “divine nature,” does not make Jesus as the Son of God coequal and coeternal with the Father, any more than humans are coequal or all the same age just because they share humanity or human nature” (Reasoning, 421). But that is not necessarily true. If all persons share humanity it does make them all human, and they are all equally “human.” One person is not more or less human than another. So, if the inevitability of death is one aspect of humanity, then all humans die, all are mortal; they are equal in that regard. Similarly, if divinity inherently includes an eternal nature, and Jesus and God are divine, of the same essence (consubstantial), then both are eternal.

Actually, the Jehovah's Witnesses’ comparison of Jesus with all humans who share humanity is another flawed analogy because Jesus doesn’t share God at all like humans have a share in humanity. Jesus is fully God, and not somehow made God by virtue of the hypostatic union.

At Hebrews 1:3 Christ is said to be “the very imprint of His (God’s) being” (NAB) (“the very stamp of his nature” (RS) (“the express image of His substance” (Strong and Vine’s, 269).

204

Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.

by jonathan dough in

i'll start with john 14:8-10. .

scriptural support for the triune nature of god, and the gradual recognition that jesus christ, the word incarnate (john 1:1), was and is god, can be found throughout the bible.

the evidence is abundant and unfolds like a flower, foreshadowed in the old testament and revealed in the new testament.

jonathan dough

Jona,

And the Bible states that all things were created by, for and through the Word, the second person of the Trinity. And since the Word was before all things, he could not logically be a "thing" created.

Well I think your stretching it a little there. Your logic is a little short sighted and based on semantics.

For example: Why couldn't Jesus be the very first thing god created and then god gets tired and says:"Jesus, I'm tired, if you want to make something go ahead I give you the power"?

-----------------------------------------------

ME: Because the proof is overwhelming that the Word was not created, that's why. The Word is eternal. It's not semantics, but sound scriptural teaching that stretches back 2,000 years. The JWs' NWT itself concedes that the Prince of Peace is eternal at Isaiah 9:6. Col. 1:16, 17 is not a play on words but sound doctrine. The Word is before all things. Add the many other proofs together and there is no other acceptible answer. The Word cannot be God if He was created.

204

Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.

by jonathan dough in

i'll start with john 14:8-10. .

scriptural support for the triune nature of god, and the gradual recognition that jesus christ, the word incarnate (john 1:1), was and is god, can be found throughout the bible.

the evidence is abundant and unfolds like a flower, foreshadowed in the old testament and revealed in the new testament.

jonathan dough

PS, no offense taken, but sometimes I don't undertand the point of the scripture you quote without some introductory explanation of what it is supposed to support.